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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:00 pm 
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Koa
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Well I thought my fit between the neck and body was perfect and then when I glued up the neck I ended up with a couple of minor gaps. I cant be the only one and wondering what you guys have used to fill gaps. Thought someone told me they used Crayola Crayons and simply rubbed the crayon into the gap. Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:03 pm 
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Actually, getting the neck set perfectly is an indicator to a lot of folks of the luthier's joinery skills. More to the point, the neck-to-body joint is one that many folks, including me spend whatever energy and patience we have to perfect. It can be frustrating as can be, but as you now know, is something that can't be covered very easily. I suppose you could try crayon or something, maybe even some hide glue. If it were me, I'd remove the neck and get it fit right. It wouldn't take much effort, just a little time, and you would feel better about it after it's done. Plus, you get the experience of a small neck reset job.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:51 pm 
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Koa
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I hear ya Don but I hate the thought of pulling the neck and ruining the finish in the process. It looked pretty darn good to me before I glued it up. Something must have shhifted on me or perhaps I didnt have the neck fully seated in the slot and missed it. Not real bad but I know its there. If it was bad I would pull it but I really dont want to run the risk of damaging the finish in the process.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Koa
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Rich do you have a picture? Crayons are a furnuture repairmans trick for cheap furnuture. Did you build a cheap guitar? Burn in Lacquer sticks work better then crayons. Won't melt if it gets above a hundred degrees in the sun.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:28 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Taylor uses some sort of colored seam sealer to fill small voids in their NT neck pocket area. I have a video from them where Bob goes through the whole procedure.



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:29 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First, Rich is this a bolt on or a dovetail?

Petros uses furniture strap clamps around his guitar/neck join, in addition to regular clamps on his dovetail.

I know you shouldn't need strap clamps.

But it makes sense when you have all that slick hide glue in a dovetail to get it and keep it where you want it.

I don't use strap clamps, but I do use two long cloth-covered bungees. Along with regular Klemmsias too of course.

If you are gonna fill a gap, try some beeswax.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Koa
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If you are doing dovetails, they should fit so well that you barely need to clamp the joint. I've seen Jeff Traugott fit a dovetail on a Martin reset and string up the guitar with no glue to double check the neck angle, and there's no gap anywhere. Maybe that's the kind of craftsmanship that earns him the big bucks...

You should be able to use a deep clamp to seat it home, a 3" C clamp and a couple of cauls to glue down the fingerboard extension, and that's it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:18 am 
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Koa
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Hi Rich
    Long time no see. Call me if you can. I know a few guys are using shellac sticks .
john


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:27 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Hi Rich it great to see you my friend.  Nothing to add here but I just wanted to say hello to you.




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I hear ya about not wanting to take the neck off and damage the finish Rich.I had to do it on my last guitar.I had a small gap that I just couldn't leave. So ,I took the time very carefully and got it right. I'm glad I did.
btw.- The finish around the heel got a little mar from the sandpaper but it buffed right out.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:05 am 
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Cocobolo
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Mohawk finishing products makes all the repair and filler items for professional restoers/repairers.

Dean


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:59 am 
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Try True Oil if the gaps not too big.
Good luck
Danny


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:05 am 
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Hi Rich,

Hey, its worth the effort to pull the neck and get it right.
Every single time you pick up that guitar, you will wish you had.
My #3 had a less than perfect joint. I tried to live with it, well after about a year, I yanked it and fixed it. It was a dovetail. I used a hair dryer for heat, and an high e string to separate the fretboard extention from the top, and the pumped some steam in the dove tail via an expresso machine
Fixed the joint, reglued and did a little touch up buffing and I was FINALY happy.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:06 am 
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Cocobolo
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If the joint fit well when it was dry fit, but doesn't fit right now that it is glued, then it either didn't really fit right in the first place or it wasn't positioned properly when the glue dried. Either way you have a dovetail that is not tight and is relying on the glue rather than the wood to keep it in position. That is a dovetail that is likely to fail over time under string tension. I would take it off now and get it right. If you have to repair the finish, then you have to repair the finish. That's life as a luthier !!

I just had to remove a neck and do finish repairs because the lacquer "clam shelled" off the edge of the fingerboard when I clamped it down.  It set back completion of the guitar by 3 weeks. Now its done and the flaw won't be there for the rest of the guitars life. Well worth it !!

Mark



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:41 am 
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Cocobolo
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Remember too that if you fit the neck prior to the finish application the .005" or so of material on the top, sides adjacent to the dovetail as well as any build up at the edge of the heel or dovetail pocket will require careful removal and re-fitting prior to glueing. 



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:51 am 
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Cocobolo
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This is not one I'm proud of but I'll share the story for others who might find themselves in the same situation.  My problem began when I built the form for the first 12 fret Dreadnought I made.  I thought I had everything lined up and proper angles at the neck and tail block were set.  They were not.  This makes for a very difficult neck set as you can imagine.  I went ahead and finished the guitar as it was an experiement in what could be done with some ideas I had.  I spent a great deal of time getting the dovetail joint to be a perfect fit and finally realized the problem.  I finished the guitar and it had a .5 mm gap at the base of the neck joint on the treble side.  It drove me crazy and I considered every option listed above then realized this was an experiment and not going anywhere so I thought I'd see what I could do to repair it.  I had left-over mahogany from the neck so I prepared an exact shim fit, stained it with the same material, glued it in place and finished it with lacquer and it came out as pictured.  The photo is really enlarged so it is quite hard to find, it would take someone pointing it out to find it.


Do it right the first time, I threw that form out and have a much better one now.   Lessons learned on instruments that are for just such a thing can be a real blessing when it comes time to build something you can't afford to be anything but perfect. 


Bruce



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:43 am 
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Koa
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Like my friend Danny V said... If the gaps are tiny, true oil will hide them almost completely.
The time Danny & I tried it to fill a little gap, we put a drop of oil onto the corner & let gravity run the drop along the joint.
I use this trick on all my guitars now... even a really nice joint looks better when you do. Looks like the neck & body were finished after they were joined.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:59 am 
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Koa
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I find it interesting that some are advising on how to cover it up and hide the gap, while others are saying it clearly must be fixed and properly fit. It will be interesting to see how Rich sorts through the advise being given.

Peace,Rich


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:30 am 
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Cocobolo
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To me, the decision on cover-up vs. fix it with a new set depends on the existing neck set.  In my case, the problem was not the joint. It was tight and solid so I knew I would not have any problems with movement.  My problem was the neck surface at the body, that one spot was not flat and no amount of re-setting the neck would have changed it.  I have no problem pulling a neck out, in the big picture, it's a small price to pay for a good looking and functioning joint.


I knew that to really seal that joint in this guitar, more than a new neck set was necessary so I went with the fix it in place method. I would certainly hope that I will never have to face that again but if I do and pulling the neck would take care of it, that's what I'd do.  I  just screwed up and tried the best method I could come up with to minimize the damage.  The guitar is a player for me, I can live with it.


I think you have to look at all the factors and decide but removing and resetting a neck should not stop anyone from doing things right if that's the best solution.  My opinion only, probably are several ways to look at this.


Bruce


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:52 am 
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Koa
Koa

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There's always the Gibson way...sunburst it...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 pm 
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Mahogany
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Rich,


I'll probably get pasted for this but hey... What the heck.


I taped the body and neck around a small gap in my neck joint before I began my repair to protect the existing finish. I proceded to mix up a small batch of 30 minute expoxy with a dash of amber tint to match my finish. I then simply used a toothpick to drop in the expoxy until the gap was filled.  I removed the tape immediately and let the epoxy filler set over night. 


The next morning the epoxy was dried to a high gloss (matching my finish) and looked very natural.  My reasoning for not removing the neck was that it was set perfectly and the guitar sounded very good!


This guitar was for me so I did not want to mess with the sound I was getting. I do believe,however, that if this was for a commision the neck would certainly had to have been removed and redone.


Ray



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:20 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Been away on business all week. Thanks so much eveyone for all your feedback. Lots of great ideas and I am leaning toward removing the neck and making the proper correction but have a couple of concerns that might be unfouded.

My intonation is excellent and the action is pretty close to perfect at this point with a tiny bit of saddle left if it needs to be further reduced once everything breaks in (a past learning experience).

I am a little concerned if I remove more of the heel now that the bridge is glued up and the finish is completed that I might make a good situation bad.

Especially like Lance's idea of removing the fret board with an E-string. That one is new to me (although I used to remove winshields from cars that way in a past life). My guess is with some taping along the fretboard are of the body this approach would result in a flawless removal. This is a bolt on neck so not much concern beyond the soundboard gettig damaged.

Also like the idea of filling the gap with stick shellac/lacquer although I have made a mess with that stuff in the past - proably need to exxperiment.

Like the alternative of using a tinted epoxy to fill as suggested also.

But all in all, the things that keeps buzzing in my mind was the one comment that I will always know it is there and that will tug at me.

This is perhaps my best build to date and is made of brazilian with lutz top, abalone appointments on soundboard and this is the only real defect on this one (excluding the fact that one of the tuners is a wee bit closer to the headstock than the opposing tuner. Another topic for the future).

I appreciate this forum a great deal and my day job has me traveling extensively so I lurk more these days than post but here are some things I did on this build as a result of following all of your progress:

Hesh - I used some ideas from your posts on parabolic bracing of soundboard.

Also made my top a little heavier this time around as a rsult of my tops arching as they aged and causing poor action with no where to go with saddle. That was result of many member discussions

Did this one (and the past 2) with French Polish as inspired by many posts and I must say my finishes look as good as lacquer these days, and more fun u to do.

I still have a lot to learn and just wanted to finish this post with a thank you to all of you who are so passionate and so giving of your time, experience and support.

In closing - Wishing you all a very merry Christmas and a healthy, happy and prosperous New Year.

OLF rocks !!!!!



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:53 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:24 am
Posts: 830
Location: United States
Hi Rich,
It's nice to see you on the olf web. It's been some time since we had a discusion.
Don't feel bad about neck gaps, I have to deal with it almost every guitar build. Somehow it works out ok with lacquer sticks or just adjusting the neck a little better. I have to stop being so lazy!

Say I'm now living in Hillsboro, Oregon. Let it rain let irain, let it rain!!!

Drop me a line brother,

walter


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:08 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:20 pm
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Location: United States
Hey Walter

I know its been a while. Not sure if you check your PM's these days but send me an email so I can get your email address. I have some more books if you want them.

My email is altieri@ppg.com


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